Podcast / interview · Sep 3, 2025 # AI, Search, and the Future of Agencies Paramus, NJ [Book this talk](https://www.alexmelen.com/contact/) Video: [Watch the talk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k) In brief In this Future Fuzz podcast episode, Alex Melen, co-founder of SmartSites, argues that generative AI is the first existential threat to the search model since the internet moved from Yahoo-style directories to search engines, yet Google searches are still rising and the clicks being lost are informational research clicks rather than purchase clicks. Drawing on nearly three decades online since founding a web hosting company in 1997, Alex explains why SmartSites has been on the Inc. 5000 nine years in a row with at least 35% year-over-year growth, and how running the agency with his brother works because their responsibilities barely overlap. He notes that average Google Ads CPCs rise every year regardless of AI, that ChatGPT is largely powered by Bing for now while Microsoft treats Copilot as a model-agnostic product, and that authentic, unpolished video shot by a business's own employees beats polished production. He closes by saying change creates opportunity, many agencies will fail, and SmartSites' industry-agnostic, performance-marketing mission to help SMBs get found online is unchanged. Key points - SmartSites has made the Inc. 5000 nine years in a row by averaging at least 35% year-over-year growth since 2011, with a five-to-six-year stretch of doubling revenue and headcount every 18 to 24 months. - Alex and his brother co-founded SmartSites and work well together because their personalities are polar opposites and their areas of responsibility barely overlap; Alex handles accounting and finance, which his brother dislikes. - Generative AI is the first existential threat to the search model since the internet shifted from Yahoo's directory concept to search engines, which is what is driving the anxiety in the market. - Google searches are actually going up even as people use generative AI, but clicks from search results to websites are going down, and the clicks being lost are informational research clicks rather than purchase clicks. - At an internal Microsoft meeting for top agency owners in March, Microsoft said there will be fewer organic and paid clicks from search, but those clicks will be more valuable. - Recipe sites and other knowledge-economy content businesses will be hit hardest because generative AI gives one clean answer without the popups and banner ads that made their user experience so poor. - For video, authenticity matters more than production value; dealerships should find an enthusiastic employee to shoot unpolished walkthroughs on a phone and use cheap AI tools to chop long clips into social posts. - Microsoft Copilot is not ChatGPT; Microsoft views Copilot as the product and may power it with different models, while for now much of ChatGPT search is powered by Bing. - SmartSites does no outbound marketing, is industry agnostic with no industry above 10% of revenue, and its performance-marketing mission to help SMBs get found online is unchanged by generative AI. > “Ever since we switched to using the internet as a search engine, I think this is the first existential threat to the entire model, which I think is creating all the anxiety that you're seeing.” [8:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=519s) · Alex Melen > “I think search use continues to actually be going up, people searching. People clicking onto websites from search is for sure going down. I think that's going to be a big thing that's going to change.” [11:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=689s) · Alex Melen > “The only sure things in life is death, taxes, and your average CPCs will go up every year.” [12:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=779s) · Alex Melen Chapters - [0:00 Nine years on the Inc. 5000](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=0s) - [2:47 Running an agency with your brother](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=167s) - [7:09 Why AI threatens the search model](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=429s) - [10:05 The apple pie recipe example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=605s) - [11:29 Fewer clicks, rising CPCs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=689s) - [15:50 Authentic video beats polished production](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=950s) - [20:09 Change, opportunity and Microsoft's comeback](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=1209s) - [24:18 Copilot, ChatGPT and Bing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=1458s) - [27:09 SMB focus and performance marketing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=1629s) Questions this talk answers **Is AI search killing Google search traffic?** Not according to Alex Melen. Google searches are actually going up even as people adopt generative AI. What is declining is clicks from search results to websites, and the clicks being lost are informational research clicks rather than purchase clicks. He says he has seen no decrease in organic or paid search traffic that differs from prior years, while average CPCs rise every year as they always have. **Does ChatGPT use Bing for search results?** Alex says the SEO community's assumption is that Bing powers most of ChatGPT's search queries, and for now a lot of ChatGPT is powered by Bing searches. But he stresses the relationship is more fluid than people realize: ChatGPT is considering other data sources, and Microsoft views Copilot as a product that could be powered by different AI models rather than just ChatGPT. **What kind of video content works best for local businesses like car dealerships?** Authentic, unpolished video shot by the business itself. Alex recommends dealerships find an enthusiastic existing employee to walk through the dealership and service center with a cell phone, add light editing, and post it. Polished TV-style ads no longer get the right attention. Free or near-free AI tools, around nine dollars a month, can chop a three-minute walkthrough into short clips for each social platform. **How will AI change digital marketing agencies?** Alex expects challenging times and believes many agencies will go out of business, but he sees change as what creates opportunity after a long period in which the digital ecosystem barely changed. Agencies focused on performance marketing, getting clients leads and business from data, will still be valid. SmartSites is already doing generative engine optimization while its core mission of helping businesses get found online stays the same. ** Full transcript 6,028 words · auto-generated captions, lightly edited for readability · timestamps link to the video ** [0:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=0s)But I think change is what creates opportunities. I think the entire digital ecosystem has not changed much in a long time. Which I think limits opportunities for everyone. I for sure think it's going to be challenging times, Anytime there's change, there's challenges. I do think a lot of agencies will go out of business. But I think opportunities are going to be everywhere and I'm very excited about the future and how rapidly it's changing. Hey everybody, welcome to the next episode of Future Fuzz, the digital marketing podcast with a B2B focus. Today I'm joined by Alex Melen, who is the founder of an award-winning best-selling author and a true digital pioneer. He's a co-founder of SmartSites, a digital marketing agency that has exploded from a handful of visionaries into a global force with over 400 employees across six offices. SmartSites is consistently featured in Ad Week and the Inc. 5000 for its remarkable growth and it's known as America's top rated digital marketing agency thanks to its datadriven customer centric approach. Alex, thanks very much for joining the show today. Yeah, thank you for having me and I almost as you were reading it, Inc. 5,000. I think their list supposed to come out in like a week. So, we're on there for the ninth year now. I was trying to do the math whether we're on 10 year, but I think this year's [1:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=84s)Nine. So, nine years in a row on the Inc. 5000 fastest growing agencies. Amazing. So, we'll have to do some cross promo when this goes out. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Nine years in a row is pretty impressive. How do how do you manage that? What's been the driving force behind that? Great question. And I was I was I'm waiting for the So I they do a big gala for the INC 5000 like recipients and I went there. So I founded the company with my younger brother. We went there I think our first year and I'm waiting for the 10-year mark to go again. So not this year but maybe next year at the 10 year mark I'll go. But yeah, I think that's certainly the challenge and talking to people at that gala when I went on the first year. I remember it was it was a lot of companies who are there the like one time when they're like the big spurt, Like they you start year one, you make no revenue, year two, year three you explode and you're there and like you're super happy. Oh my god. But the question is how do you maintain that growth, to be there. We're going to be this is our ninth year. We've averaged about 35% year-over-year growth every single year. Yeah. Since 2011, you've averaged 35% year-on-year growth. Yeah. Yeah. And it's what can I say? I would say 35% is our minimum per year. So, it's not even I think the average is probably higher. A lot of [2:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=167s)There's was a big spur of maybe five six years where we were doubling in size every 18 to 24 months both in revenue and headcount. So for sure that's that I think that for sure is a impressive part and I am very excited for the 10-year mark. I think that's more of a round number to attend the gala again. But yeah, I think making 5,000 is certainly I think a big thing to celebrate and definitely challenging, but I think it's a whole different level to be there every single year. Meaning that you can't have any off years. You have to you have to you have to keep going and firing in all cylinders every single year. But let me let me like dive into one thing you said there briefly. So you co-founded the agency with your brother, your little brother. Yeah. Yeah. He's still he's still working together. Yes. Yeah. So that's a that's an interesting one. I think I think that's the that's the golden rule. But I think we're very fortunate that we're just very different. Like our personalities are polar opposites and because of that what we do at the company is very different. So we overlap on very few things. So it's not it's not like we're like daytoday working on the same task together. We have very separate areas of responsibility that we didn't even have to define that came naturally just because we have different interests and different personalities. So very [4:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=257s)Fortunate to be in that position that there's someone else at the company that I could trust at that level and it's not just purely on me. So, it's for sure one of the trickier things. As I talk to business owners, I've heard horror stories that go in both directions. A horror story of the single entrepreneur, founder, president, whatever you want to call it, where everything's on that person, Like he can't like he can't take a day off, Like he's on he can't take flights that have no Wi-Fi. That scenario. And then the flip side of people taking on partners that they have horrible experiences with that don't carry their weight that tank the company. Right. That's Yeah. Yeah. So I've been very fortunate where I haven't had to deal with either side of that extreme. So we need to get you and your brother on another podcast and it's going to be titled how two brothers grew a multi-million dollar agency. And then and then like just make sure that you don't argue while you're on the show together, Yeah. We don't we don't want to ruin the episode. No. L luckily we don't we don't argue much but yeah I think that for sure would be good. I think that's for sure I think a big pain point for founders and u I remember there was a speaking so I do a lot of public speaking I was asked to do a session how founders decide whether to take on a partner or not and I remember that was like a very big pain point for founders. So for sure I think I'm in I'll get him in also. [5:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=344s)Yeah that'll be amazing. Yeah, one thing that I definitely learned from my side is that the overlap is key, And pulling your weight. There's two things that really stand out for me working with co-founders and running companies as well is that I really appreciate what you say there. And I agree with you 100%. This overlap is key. Like you focus on your thing, you focus on I'll focus on my thing and trust each other to do that and get it done right because when there's once there starts to be a little bit of overlap, you're like maybe a bit Yeah, for sure. It has to be people that are passionate about those different things, Like for example, like I'm a numbers person. I do the accounting finance side, Just like I'm that's my thing. He hates numbers, finance, account, like he like this dislikes it greatly. So it just it works out that way, but it has to be that way, If like both of us were very into like doing the accounting, finance stuff, for sure there'd be a lot of a lot more friction. Yeah. I've got one burning question, Alex. Yeah. Yeah, cuz you're coming at it from an agency point of view and this is going to be on a completely different subject. There's so much panic in the market right now about search marketing right ChatGPT is disrupting large language models are disrupting content like a lot of agencies getting hit a lot of agencies their clients are saying get me on ChatGPT I want to when someone asks a question I want to be the answer right Google interface has [7:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=429s)Changed you type a search query into Google right now you're getting an answer often at the top of the query you're not getting an adver advertisement. You've seen it all, right, over the past years. What are your thoughts on where this is going? Oh, man. This itself could be like a one-hour long podcast. I know we don't we don't have that much time. Jeez, and I tend to go off of tangent, so I'll try to I'll try to stay focused on because it's I think it is a very big topic. So, I've been involved with internet space since 1997. I started my first tech company 97, one of the first web hosting companies predating the start of Google. So indeed I have seen it all. We are a very Google-centric / search-centric / mobile-centric agency and always have been because we also have a very good relationship with Google. A lot of it is because as opposed to a lot of other agencies who just fight for the client and Google could care less which agency manages the client. We do a lot of website creation. So we've been over the last 14 years now brought a lot of net new business to Google. Meaning roofers, plumbers, pavers who don't have a website. If they don't have a website, guess what? They can't be on Google ads. They can't be part of the Google ecosystem. They can't even have a Google email address because they are not online. So, because of that, I' I have a lot of exposure to all of this. What can I say? It's for sure the first time since we started using the internet as a search engine. And for those that have been around long enough, Yahoo was primarily not a search engine, [8:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=519s)The philosophy of Yahoo was a directory. Their idea of how people use the internet is like a yellow pages, That was that was their concept. Ever since we switched to using the internet as a search engine, I think this is the first existential threat to the entire model, Okay. Which I think is creating all the anxiety and things that you're seeing. So it looking at facts the searches on Google are actually going up. So for sure people are using generative AI but searches are going up looking at the facts but there's for sure existential threat. He's been like on an island retired like in a hammock, He's been he's been out of the picture. He literally came back because it is existential threat where all of a sudden consumer behaviors could shift away from search. And if you think about it, we've become a very Google-centric / search-centric / mobile-centric not even country but world where I don't know if any scenario you could think of, you come home and you're I've used this example before so anyone who's heard me before might my prayer. But you come home, your pipe's leaking in the basement, [10:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=605s)Like literally water's coming out of the pipe, the pipe burst. First thing you're going to do is take out your cell phone and on your cell phone search plumber emergency plumber near me or something like that, We've literally are very search centric. It's become Google-centric / search-centric / mobile-centric. But that's literally how we find all our information. And now for the first time ever, that's changing and it's changing very rapidly. And the new way is better in a lot of sense in a lot of cases. For example, I don't know what's a big pain point. If you ever searched for any recipe to like bake something the I'll walk you through the process for people who have not. You'll go on Google, you search for a recipe, you'll get 10,000 different recipe websites. When you click on them, you're going to get like three popups. You're probably going to get 20 banner ads at least. Your computer will probably be infected with a virus at the end of it. You're just going to be like blue screen of death and that's it. You're I'm out. I'm not I'm not making this apple pie. Right now, all of a sudden, you have generative AI. You go into generative AI. You type in give me apple pie recipe. You get one straight away. Boom. Yeah. And not only that, you could be well, guess what? These are the only ingredients I have on me. Give me a recipe with these specific ingredients. And what? Give it to me line by line so as I'm preparing, I could see the line items, You didn't get any popups, banners, advertising. Your computer didn't get infected with a virus. So for sure very disruptive. [11:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=689s)I could also tell you that the amount of spam I get and I get a lot of spam being in the digital space and having the same email address for a long time lends itself to that. I get a lot of spam. All my spam used to be for like blog posts and link building and back links and all of a sudden I'm getting posts for GEO, generative engine optimization. So and I think the spammers are usually the opportunists who are who are first to market on it. So to go back to your original question, I think there is a lot of change happening. I think search use continues to be actually going up, people searching, People clicking onto websites from search is for sure going down. I think that's going to be a big thing that's going to change. Being at an internal Microsoft meeting in March outside of the US that they held specifically for top agency owners. The way Microsoft presented it is that there's going to be less clicks organically and paid from search results, but those clicks will be more valuable. More valuable. Yeah. But I feel like I feel like Gary Vaynerchuk already predicted this and I know I know he says he says a lot of stuff and there's so much volume that comes out of Gary Vaynerchuk's mouth that he's going to get some stuff right. But he did make a very good point. It's like in the end because let's say the proliferation of content is going to be so massive that when you get the engagement or the click or the [12:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=779s)Conversion or whatever you're going to call it, it's going to be very expensive but it'll be worth it. Right. Correct. It becomes Yeah. And that's Microsoft's approach. I mean, from one standpoint, what other explanation would they give? Right. Like they're not I know they're not going to go and tell agency owners everyone's going to start getting less clicks and pay more for those clicks and you're going to be okay with it, so from one side, it's a little bit of excuse, but for sure the clicks that we're losing are the informational research clicks, not the purchase clicks. And aside from all of this, ChatGPT just announced that they're going to have agents that are going to do shopping for you. So, all of this is rapidly changing, but for the time being, I'm not seeing any decrease in organic search traffic or paid search in any way that is different from what we've seen in prior years, Every year your average cost per click on Google ads will get higher, Like that's two things I could tell you, That you're gonna that what I think the saying is like death and taxes, It's this is the third one. It's like the only sure things in life is death taxes and your average CPCs will go up every year. So quote that. Yes. Yes. So the average CPCs are going up. Surprise, surprise, But they've been going up every single year, And I remember when I first [14:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=863s)Started my hosting company, I remember being very frustrated when Google implemented like the minimum CPCs of like 10 cents. And I'm who's paying 10 cents for these clicks? So clicks go up, the cost goes up every year, so it went up this year, but I think nothing outside of the norm is still is happening right now. Yeah, I think it's normal. So, strategies need to shift a little bit, If you're I don't know if you're a recipe website if literally and I talked to a lot of I talked to at affiliate marketing conferences and people who are much greater impacted by this than the local SMB right if you're a recipe website you're going to be severely impacted right you're going to be ahead future is sponsored by sales source B2B pipeline management and sales growth for your business let me tell you about a funny story about raising of prices so but like Pre-COVID, I knew TikTok was going to be pretty popular. So, I bought the website Tik Tokadvertising.com. I went on GoDaddy. I bought Tik Tokadvertising.com and I paid something like $20 for it. Yeah. I ran ads on it. The leads came tumbling in. We were killing it. And it was so early with TikTok that I had to call someone based in China. They gave me access to the system. And a lot of it was still in Chinese, This is like really early on. It was It was an amazing 9 months. We had the best time ever. We were running TikTok ads. We were spending 5 cents CPM on TikTok ads. [15:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=950s)It was so much fun. And then, the pricing very, very quickly went up, very, very quickly because the demand started to increase, And then we received a letter from ByteDance's lawyers and they were "Don't do this anymore. Don't do this anymore." And we were "It's fine. We had great nine months. See you later." But what I'm trying to say there is that nine like within nine months, price increase was incredible. I should attract it, I really should attract it. So, it's not surprising that these things are going to happen, but absolutely that's really key and need to really hit that home is that people that like based on knowledge economy searches like recipe websites and that thing and they are terrible, aren't they? That they're going to get hit. The user experience is terrible. That's why the opportunity is there. The user experience on Google for apple pie recipe was so amazing. Yeah. No one would have been moving those searches over anywhere else. I got to ask I got to ask you another one. Got to ask you one more thing as well. So what's your feeling about video content both in B2B and B2C standpoint? Where's that going? Yeah, good question. So as a agency, we were never super heavy on video. I know a lot of agencies that are. I think video obviously especially short form has become very popular in recent times with TikTok. TikTok probably drove all of that right YouTube shorts came out because of TikTok. I think it's tough for from the [17:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=1038s)Agency perspective. I think what's going to be important video is authenticity and it's something very difficult to create at an agency level, Like I could guide a local business like we do a lot of stuff with automotive with car dealerships, Yeah. You wrote a book about it, Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I It's funny. I wanted to do a book on every industry, but that's such a story for another time. You could do a podcast on every industry. Don't worry about it. We perfect book up my whole calendar. So, so for a dealership, I could go and have a video produced and people do, So, car dealerships do a lot of video. They do the local TV ads that I'm sure you've seen like the with like the guy on the lot and like come on down, I could do I could do video ads like that. Video creative. I could I could for sure, even though it's not our core strength, I could find a video production company, But it's not it's not what gets attention these days and it's not what gets the correct attention right. Authenticity becomes very important. So for video I think it becomes it almost pushed to the SMB right like I could do amazing advertising marketing with a video but in terms of creation I would love for the business themselves to be creating something not polished like literally on the ground floor. I don't know, find I've recommended to several of my dealership clients to just find an [18:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=1122s)Employee they already have that's just enthusiastic about it. Whether they're enthusiastic now or they want to learn it, That's I think that's where video has been heading. I think it's the authentic unpolished on the ground versus the like the big media production polished up video. I think that's where the attention is going with video. Yeah, that's really fascinating to say that like just with an iPhone 16 Pro, right, which they can get they that someone who works in that organization can get out there and start making shots and you're bang on with authenticity. I think maybe not like baby boomer generation. I think they're more used to polished advertising. That's my feeling anyway. But millennials, gen zeds, they want to have it like they want to have it real, They don't mind if it's a bit tatty around. Even the older folks like Randy, you're at a dealership. You do literally a walk through around the dealership with your cell phone. I don't know, light editing on it. Yeah. This is our service center. Show like cars being worked on. I think even the older generation would appreciate that versus the typical like generic stuff that used to get produced. Yeah, I think there's something in it. Then there's also great tools out there. I'm going to namerop unclear tool name (host reference, likely Veed.io); left out of summary. Where we had Sam who's the VP of product. He came on the podcast a few weeks ago. Oh, very cool. Yeah, it's amazing platform. We use it as well. You chuck in your clips, you put in a prompt, and it makes suggestions for you. It's "Oh, this is how I would edit it." And I put [20:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=1209s)That graphic in there. So, all that stuff's gotten so amazing. There's a bunch of different tools, and I won't name any competing brands, but there a bunch of different tools. You literally you shoot your long form video. You walked around the dealership, you filmed your 3 minutes. Pop it in there and I'll chop it off. I'll chop it up for you in small clips to share on different social media platforms all automatically, And these tools are like a bunch are free and a bunch are I would say near free, Like the $9 a month services. Yeah. Or they get you in at $9 though, right, Alex? And then you have to scale. But it's worth it. It's a good investment. Yeah. Yes. Yes. For sure. Is there any anything you're very excited about for the future? Are there any things that you and your team are doing? Are you opening in new offices? Where are you seeing the most growth? Yeah, good question. I'm excited for change and I know a lot of people would say the opposite, but I think change is what creates opportunities. I think the entire digital ecosystem has not changed much in a long time. Which I think limits opportunities for everyone. I for sure think it's going to be challenging times, Anytime there's change, there's challenges. I do think a lot of agencies will go out of business. But I think opportunities are going to be everywhere and I'm very excited about the future and how rapidly [21:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=1293s)It's changing. I haven't seen consumer behaviors change so rapidly in a very long time. And I haven't seen such a big shakeup to the industry to perception to everything. And I'll give you a good example. Microsoft obviously partnered with ChatGPT although their Copilot is its own thing now. And they're actually considering using different AI models, not just ChatGPT, but Microsoft I don't know let's not counting the last two years, Looking back a little further, when's the last time anyone's been excited about anything for Microsoft, Like are you have you been lining up at like at your local store for like the latest version of Windows? I know Microsoft I don't know calendar invite for when the latest Microsoft Office is going to drop. Are you like Well, I celebrated when like Internet Explorer imploded, So, no, I haven't been curious. Right. Exactly. No, no, that's exactly it. And then and then for their trying to think I think the last time there was excitement about Microsoft I don't know if you've seen this video for those that have not you should go on YouTube and look it up. Windows 95 came out and you see where Steve Ballmer's on stage dancing. Have you seen this one with like with like confetti coming down I think that was the last time everyone was like excite like lining up for Windows 95. With [22:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=1376s)With all this AI stuff I think when all this started coming out when Edge introduced Copilot integration they had a million people sign up for the beta wow within one hour that's amazing yeah Microsoft mic like who's signing up for right so the speed at which perceptions are changing is just mindboggling mind it creates such crazy opportunity like Microsoft who is, by the way, Microsoft's a great company. I've I have nothing bad to say about them. They've provided amazing support to us on the advertising side. I think as a company, they're doing a lot of right things where Google might not be right now. Like have you ever used Bing on your mobile device? I don't think they even like purchased an SSP, did they? [24:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=1458s)I don't think I think they tried to build, I mean, they didn't do anything in the ad space very well. No, no, nothing. Nothing. Nothing. And on mobile, they have literally we became a world of mobile. Everyone uses their cell phone. I don't think anyone has Bing as their search engine on mobile, I think their mobile search volume is like zero. But the results that come from ChatGPT when it's a search query, is that coming from Bing or is that coming from anywhere? So the assumptions, let's put that. The relationship between Microsoft and ChatGPT is more fluid than people realize. I think both ChatGPT is considering other sources of data and Microsoft I think views Copilot as the product and I think Microsoft's belief is in the future what AI model powers it won't be as important as the product and I could see Microsoft powering Copilot by different models in the future like one model for these searches one for another so it's not I just want to make it clear that Microsoft Copilot is not ChatGPT and ChatGPT is Microsoft Copilot. They're not like exactly the [25:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=1541s)Same thing, but for now a lot of ChatGPT is powered by Bing searches for sure. Bing searches. Yeah, that's definitely that's definitely interesting stuff. And I'm very curious and this is a whole other podcast as well. It's like when is OpenAI going to float on the stock exchange? When are they going to spin it off? They've got a huge bill to pay. I think it's something like $62 billion gap in the finances, When is the business model going to come about? Because it can't it can't go on like this forever. The one thing I'd have to say from our discussion today, Alex, is like I really enjoy your candidness. Don't worry, we'll edit stuff out so you don't get into trouble. Everything I've said has been good. I've been I've gotten much better. I've got much better after getting in trouble a couple times. We'll get we'll get the lawyers to check it. And the one thing that's really hitting home as well is like looking like so we've been done doing some research on SmartSites. It's like it's impressive global team. The growth is amazing. And I think what really hits home to me is like the strength of the SMB market, The smaller businesses, the entrepreneurs, the car dealerships that you have so many of those clients. I think from what I'm seeing is like that's going to that's going to get you through some of the rough times because that's a huge market and you've obviously built some amazing trust there. For sure. What can I say? Probably yes and no. We are very SMB heavy and as part of our core goals is helping SMBs manage the digital landscape right that's our core business goal. [27:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=1629s)On the flip side though during things like COVID we were probably more impacted than Yes. Okay. Like we had I don't know we have 10% of our clients had restaurants let's say right that closed overnight like 24 hours that business is gone. Right. We had a we had a big client who was a travel agency for cruise ships that's been around for 121 years. They went out of business in two weeks. Wow. Two weeks. Wow. In two weeks is all it took. Isn't that crazy? So, for sure, for sure. During catastrophes, SMBs are probably less insulated, but yeah, I think in the long term, I think our mission has not changed with the with the generative AI and everything. Our mission is still to help SMBs get discovered and get business from the digital space, let's call it. Yeah. So, so I do think that for sure is Do you want to go for big Are you thinking like long-term strategy is to go for bigger companies as well in the in the portfolio? Yeah, very interesting question. So, we don't do we're probably unique where we don't do any outbound marketing. So what I mean by that is we advertise ourselves and then who calls us is who calls us. So we do get some big business coming in also because again we don't control the inbound a lot of like [28:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=1712s)The enterprise fortune 500 companies are not going to find their agency of choice doing an internet search. It's a lot more networking. Yeah. Networking and like that stuff. So that naturally has an effect. But for sure we get we big companies as well. Our approach and that's one of the reasons we are in every industry. We're industry agnostic. No industry is more than 10% of what we do. The reason it works in every industry is because as long as you're data focused. We do what I like to call performance marketing. So there's a lot of companies that do like wishy-washy up in the air stuff. We do performance marketing where we get you leads and business. I think that model works whether you have one office or you have 5,000 employees. I think that model will continue to be valid with the invention whether generative AI becomes a thing not a thing. I think our mission our mission to help businesses get found. I think maybe operationally we make tweaks and we are already doing some GEO, generative engine optimization and I have a speech coming up actually on the signals for generative engine optimization. So, we're certainly doing that as well, but our overall mission is to help businesses get found online and to be successful online. I think that mission has not been impacted by Generative AI and all the change that's happening. Brilliant. Alex, it's been absolutely amazing speaking to you. Thanks for taking the time while you're actually on vacation. [29:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95HVpGd26k&t=1797s)So, no worries. Just a pleasure. Covered so many so much good stuff there. We're going to get so much good content out of it and some definitely some good quotes, too. Thanks very much for joining the show. Thank you for having me. Thanks for tuning in and making the choice to listen to this podcast. If you liked what you've heard today, please don't forget to subscribe. In this episode of Future Fuzz, Justin sits down with Alex Melen, award-winning entrepreneur, best-selling author, and co-founder of SmartSites – America’s top-rated digital marketing agency. Alex shares how he and his brother scaled the business from a small team into a 400+ person global agency, landing a spot on the Inc. 5000 list nine years in a row. From navigating rapid technological shifts to staying ahead in a generative AI–driven world, Alex offers candid insights on sustaining growth, working with family, and helping SMBs thrive in changing markets. He also unpacks his views on the f Date Sep 3, 2025 Location Paramus, NJ Format Podcast / interview Speaker [Alex Melen](https://www.alexmelen.com/about/) More like this - [Why Ecommerce Teams Need to Prepare for AI Shopping Now @ The FODcast by Simply Commerce](https://www.alexmelen.com/speaking-engagements/why-ecommerce-teams-need-to-prepare-for-ai-shopping-now-fodcast/) Oct 6, 2026 · Online - [How Data and AI Are Shaping PPC and SEO](https://www.alexmelen.com/speaking-engagements/how-data-and-ai-are-shaping-ppc-and-seo/) Jun 25, 2026 · Paramus, NJ - [Growth Marketing Strategies @ Brizy Growth Marketing Podcast](https://www.alexmelen.com/speaking-engagements/growth-marketing-strategies-brizy-growth-marketing-podcast/) Mar 23, 2026 · Online - [How Automotive Brands Can Stop Junk Leads & Increase Real Buyers](https://www.alexmelen.com/speaking-engagements/how-automotive-brands-can-stop-junk-leads-increase-real-buyers-alex-melen/) Feb 18, 2026 · Paramus, NJ - [Venluto Podcast Learn from big leaders that are doing over $100M/yr in revenue. Featured speaker: Alex Melen.](https://www.alexmelen.com/speaking-engagements/venluto-podcast-learn-from-big-leaders/) Jan 28, 2026 · Paramus, NJ ## Bring Alex to your next event. Keynotes, breakouts, and workshops on AI search, digital marketing, and scaling a business. Tell him about your audience and he will come back with a talk built for the room. [Check availability](https://www.alexmelen.com/contact/) [Speaker kit](https://www.alexmelen.com/speaking/#kit) --- Source: https://www.alexmelen.com/speaking-engagements/ai-search-and-the-future-of-agencies-alex-melen/ · Markdown version of this page for AI agents and LLMs. Site guide: https://www.alexmelen.com/llms.txt